Mr. Gilles Bisson: Okay. Let me go back to the Ring of Fire. Don’t run away, Bill, because I do like you. Let me go back to the Ring of Fire. I just want to understand something and see if the minister sees it in this way as well.

In the interim, now that we have Bill 191 passed and it’s going to be proclaimed and regulations will be drafted, how do you deal—I’m trying to put this in a way that is not too confrontational—with those communities, at the end of the day, who say, “No, I don’t want to participate in a land use plan,” and there would be a development in that area? What happens?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: It’s a little difficult for me to speak to this because, obviously, I’m not the minister responsible for the Far North land use, Bill 191.

I don’t know of communities, other than potentially one—and I’m even speculating when I say that—that would not want to be involved in those discussions.

I know that the minister has spoken about the number of communities that they’re working with in terms of discussions on land use planning.

I think I can say, relatively safely, that most of the communities that are obviously more directly impacted by the Ring of Fire development are open to discussions, I believe. I think it’s fair to say. But I want to be a little careful, because I can’t speak for all the First Nations directly, of course.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I just want to go back and sort of caution you and others that in the case of what’s happening with the Ring of Fire, it’s no different than what happened with De Beers. It’s not just a question of negotiating with the directly affected community, which in our case was Attawapiskat. You need to deal with all those other communities that are down the road. They all have an authority on their own traditional territories, and if you’ve got to cross them to get there, you have to have an agreement with them.

What I very much fear is that we may end up in a situation where communities, for their own reasons—because they’re not happy with Bill 191, the Far North planning act, the way it ended up—may end up in a position where they’re not prepared to go into land use plans. My understanding of the legislation, then, is that there will be no development unless cabinet decides otherwise, because there is that provision in the act.

I’m fearful that what we may end up with is a situation where a few communities decide yes, a few communities decide no; there’s a split, there’s a fight between the communities as to what’s going to happen; and then we all end up sort of looking around. The pot of water is getting smaller and our eyeballs are getting closer and closer, and we all start fighting amongst ourselves over this development.

I just want to say, in the last couple of minutes that we have, I agree that the Ring of Fire has huge potential for northern Ontario. But we really need to understand that it is not going to be able to go forward unless the government very clearly says that those developments aren’t going to happen without the consent of First Nations; that they will have an ability to negotiate IBAs that make sense for them; and they will have a process under land use planning, currently not available to them under this legislation but possibly under amended legislation, that allows them to get to where they are.

I guess the last point I would just make is this, in regard to the Ring of Fire, and I said it the other day: We need to ensure that the resources we have here in northern Ontario are used to the maximum effect for the province. That means that I very much want this not to be just a mining operation.

I think a lot of people in the north, in your area and mine, are saying that if this is just going to be a mine and we’re going to process the ore outside—we’re scratching our heads at that point, saying, yeah, there will be some jobs created, because mining is important. It creates very many good value-added jobs, very many highly paid jobs, but we don’t get the value-added by just mining; we get the value-added by doing the milling and what’s after.

I just want to say, in the last two minutes that I have—

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): One minute.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: —one minute that I have—I’m watching the time very carefully, Chair—that northern Ontario wants this project to go forward. But as I said earlier, it has to follow three principles:

(1) It has to protect our environment. We need something, at the end of the day, that ensures that whatever happens is not detrimental to the environment.

(2) First Nations must benefit.

(3) The development must go forward in a way that makes sense for all of Ontario and northern Ontario, and we must do the value-added that’s necessary in putting value on those resources.

If we can’t achieve those three principles, I think we’re going to be in trouble in northern Ontario, not only politically but economically.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I appreciate everything you’ve said there. It’s really constructive and very positive. And, may I say, without being at all glib, that those are words that certainly I could have been saying in a speech to a number of groups and organizations. We feel very, very strongly about all those things. We are determined and committed to seeing, obviously, that the greatest value-added opportunities come from this operation.

I’ve learned a great deal in this job, and obviously one keeps learning in this job, but certainly dealing with the communities, the First Nations, I recognize that it’s important to deal with each of them individually. I deal with the leadership, but I recognize that. We are working, as you would know, with a number of communities on either memorandums of co-operation or memorandums of agreement or other such things.

I can tell you as well that I do believe that the measures that we’re working on in terms of the modernization of the Mining Act will be substantially very helpful in terms of us reaching some of our goals. I believe, with our Ring of Fire coordinator in place and this government’s commitment to make this work as a very delicately, well-managed process, we can reach those goals. I think it’s true.

It’s one of these things that in some ways crosses party lines completely. This is about an opportunity we want to see happen, but we want to see it happening to the benefit of everyone and really making a difference in northern Ontario in a way that we haven’t been able to do for some time. So I appreciate everything you said.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): Thank you, Minister. Your time is up—a little over. We’ll move to the government side. Mrs. Van Bommel.

Mrs. Maria Van Bommel: I just want to go a little further with the same discussion because Mr. Bisson and both of you brought up the whole issue of mining and the importance that mining plays in the economy of northern Ontario. We talk about the Ring of Fire. We talk about the De Beers diamond mines.

You just mentioned the modernizing of the Mining Act. I’d like to explore that a little bit to see, when you talk about the modernization of the act, what you mean by modernization. How will that change how mining is done in northern Ontario?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I very much appreciate that question. This has been certainly one of the most important things that we’ve worked on in our ministry over the last couple of years. There’s still substantial work to be done, but we’re very proud of the fact—a piece of legislation such as the Mining Act is one that’s been around for a long time. It was very much determined that, indeed, there needed to be a look at how we could modernize it.

Obviously, as the minister for mines, you’re an advocate for the mining industry. We’re excited about it. It’s a tremendous economic driver in the province of Ontario. It’s remarkable in terms of how important it has been. There have been some challenges, obviously in the last couple of years, but it’s coming back. It’s just huge in terms of jobs. The biggest private sector employer of aboriginals is the mining sector in Canada. It’s incredible.

Obviously, that’s where the Ring of Fire becomes very exciting for us as well because we see some of these extraordinary opportunities developing, and we want to be ready and positioned for that. It did become clear that, indeed, the time had come for us to look at the Mining Act to find this opportunity to modernize it.

Again, I made reference to balance earlier about other issues related to forestry. Certainly, in the mining sector, that became I think the key in terms of the watchword, in terms of how we move forward with the Mining Act. How do you modernize a piece of legislation while you maintain a positive investment climate in the province of Ontario? Clearly, that was crucial to the mining sector itself. We certainly needed to provide clarity also to the sector. For a variety of reasons, there was a need to make sure there was certainty and clarity in terms of the investment climate and the rules that were put in place. At the same time, it also was clear we needed to modernize this piece of legislation to make it reflect, quite frankly, 21st-century values.

That became our task at hand. We went to work, and I just can’t begin to thank the people in the mining division of our ministry, who worked so very hard. The consultations and discussions began long before we brought forth the legislation itself. We recognize that there were some key items that we very much needed to be working on. Certainly, we wanted to work on issues related to the consultation.

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We are very proud that, as part of the discussions, we made a determination that we were going to be including the aboriginal and treaty rights in the preamble of the legislation itself. That became a very important element. We also wanted to be very, very sure that we built in opportunities for consultation all the way along the mining sequence. That became something that we managed to put in place, I think, quite successfully.

What we believe, ultimately, is that this—Bill 173 actually passed, and I’ve got the exact date here, October 28, that the act received royal assent. I think we actually passed it in the House just three or four weeks before then, towards the end of September.

We believe this legislation is truly going to be crucial to revitalizing Ontario’s approach to mineral exploration and mineral development. It does take extremely bold steps that support significant strides, as I mentioned, particularly related to aboriginal consultation throughout the entire mining sequence. That has become a crucial point.

For example, we’re requiring awareness training for prospectors before they receive their licence. Also, we’re going to bring into the legislation a dispute resolution process so that when we get to a situation where there can be no easy agreement on how we move forward, this dispute resolution process will be put in place.

We really, in essence, are bringing into place a framework for improved social responsibility to, as I said earlier, very much increase certainty and clarity in terms of the process so that when investment decisions are made, there’s a real understanding of what’s in place. I think it’s this certainty of the rules, and the clarity and the timeliness of the process, that the industry clearly needs.

I won’t have enough time in our segment to talk about the people that we worked with very closely, but certainly I remain ever grateful to the Ontario Mining Association. There might be some who would say that they would rather not have legislation to modernize pieces of legislation, much like we’re working to modernize the forest tenure system. We just felt that it was something to work with. The Ontario Mining Association worked very closely, and I’m grateful to Chris Hodgson and to all those at the Ontario Mining Association for the work with them, because they recognized that this was something that also needed to take place, and they wanted to have a real sense of clarity as well in terms of the road map.

We know that bringing together legislation that modernizes the way mining companies stake and explore their claims to be more respectful of private landowners—there were many issues related to private landowners—and aboriginal communities—obviously, as I mentioned earlier, recognizing aboriginal and treaty rights, and also addressing the issue of service and mineral rights, were important.

I’ve used the term “balanced approach” constantly. I think it continues to be the way that one truly is able to consider a wide range of interests while, again, always remembering that we are working to support an economic climate for the mineral sector. I feel very strongly, and I think all of our ministry officials do, that we have prepared very effective legislation that promotes that balanced development. That will be of benefit to all. Again, I think there will be some real benefits to the fact that we have brought this legislation forward. We continue to work on it as we move forward with projects that are so important to us, such as the Ring of Fire.

Certainly I’m very proud of the fact that Ontario is now the first jurisdiction in Canada to expressly recognize aboriginal treaty rights in its mining legislation. As I said, it enables this dispute resolution process. Again, it’s a first in terms of dealing with aboriginal mining issues through regulation.

Also, Ontario is the first jurisdiction to require prospectors to complete a mandatory awareness program. Again, we’ve had lots of discussions about this—I certainly have—with a number of prospectors. Some of the more veteran prospectors felt they didn’t need to have this particular awareness training, or new ones don’t need it, but it’s interesting how this is a discussion that always carries on in a very positive way. We’ve worked for it because I think it’s important to be aware of aboriginal and treaty rights and, certainly, to be familiar with the best practices in relationship-building and consultation.

Certainly, one of the things that we heard while we were going through our consultation process was that there were many First Nation communities that very much want the economic opportunities that mining can afford. Again, I refer most quickly to the Ring of Fire, but there are many other examples. It’s not particularly well known, but I think there are something like—I may have the numbers wrong—40 to 42 agreements in place between First Nation communities and mining companies, exploration companies. That’s just another example of how there is very much a positive story to tell, and we’re very excited about that.

In terms of the concerns that were addressed by the aboriginal communities, we did determine that we would introduce a new regulatory regime that will, as I pointed out earlier, include aboriginal consultation requirements for a wide range of mining activities, including our move towards map-staking across the province. That will, as we complete that process—this is all going to take some time. We want to do this in a very orderly way, and we want it to work well for everyone. We want it to work for the prospectors and the people who are staking the claims as well. But that will remove the need for the prospectors and people staking claims to go onto the land. It can certainly avoid some of the issues related to going onto land and disturbing the land in order to stake their claims.

We also recognized that it was important for us to set up and to build in provisions for withdrawing significant aboriginal cultural sites from claim-staking. That’s another very important part of the process and, I think, probably the one that is perhaps—it doesn’t seem very dramatic, because it’s not, but it’s important to build in requirements to notify aboriginal communities of plans for significant exploration activities within their traditional lands. I just think that’s something that became, clearly, extremely important, and we’re glad. Again, we did all this working very closely with a number of the mining companies as well.

It’s interesting: Mr. Bisson brings up the example of the Victor diamond mine, Ontario’s first diamond mine, and the De Beers company: How they, basically, worked very closely with the First Nations, particularly Attawapiskat, to make sure they had an impact benefit agreement in place before they moved forward with the development of the diamond mine. I must tell you that I certainly looked at that process, and our ministry looked at that process, to some degree, as a model for how we might want to be able to make our adjustments to the Mining Act. The way that they did things was so positive.

I can tell you that Jim Gowans, who was the president of De Beers Canada at the time, was very supportive of the fact that we needed to make sure we went through our process very carefully and have those discussions. He’s done a great number of things.

Well, I’m quite frankly very proud of the process that we went through. There’s no doubt that we recognized that there was a need to modernize the act. I think we’ve done—if I may say so and not appear to be too immodest—a pretty good job. Again, my ministry staff get most of the credit, if not all of the credit, for that. We’ve worked hard.

There is still a significant amount of work to do. We have to work to move forward on the regulations that will allow us to put into effect a number of the measures that have been put in place, and there are various phases to that.

In December 2009, we released the workbook on the development of regulations for the Mining Act. The workbook, in essence, provided the framework for developing key regulations for exploration; plans and permits discussion; aboriginal consultation, that dispute resolution process that we’re so proud of; map-staking; the protection of sites of aboriginal cultural significance; and also the details of the awareness program for prospectors and, of course, the provision for the withdrawal of crown-held mineral rights on private land.

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Public feedback on the regulations for the Mining Act was obtained through the Environmental Registry until—I think it began in December 2009 and was there until the end of April. It was a 130-day posting period. We received a number of submissions during that time, and we are now in the process of holding discussions on the work with the mineral sector itself, with aboriginal groups and with environmental groups throughout the spring. We did it this past spring, this summer and we’re certainly continuing it this fall.

We will certainly be seeking further input from a number of groups, including aboriginal groups in the industry itself on selected regulations in the near future, including very important feedback that we received from the minister’s Mining Act advisory committee.

In essence, this is a pretty big job. The actual final regulations will be phased in over a period of three to five years. When one is taking on a task such as this, it’s important that it be brought forward in a public way. We are pretty pleased—even the debate in the Legislature was terrific, too. I honestly can’t recall whether or not we received support from the opposition. Maybe not, but I think Mr. Bisson will acknowledge that it was a pretty good debate, in terms of what we did in modernizing the Mining Act. It was a good debate in the Legislature.

Interjection.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: He’s not exactly sure—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I’m sure; I’m just not commenting.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: But it was an important one. I think we all recognized that it was an important one. Bill 173, as we’ve pointed out, received royal assent on October 28, and the report back to the Legislature was completed by the Standing Committee on General Government. We did hold public hearings on this as well. Certainly, we are conscious that indeed there’s still some real work to do.

I can give you a bit of an update as well on the status of the regulatory development. As I pointed out, different sections of the amended act will be proclaimed as relevant details are developed. Again, as I pointed out, it is phased in over the next three to five years, very much depending on the implementation or the transitional requirements.

If one looks at phase one, we are hoping and anticipating that we can do this within a one-year time period. We will be moving to paper-staking—

Interjection.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: —two minutes; thank you—in southern Ontario. There will be criteria to withdraw crown mineral rights under the privately held service rights in northern Ontario. That’s an important aspect of the bill. I made reference to the criteria for protection of sites of aboriginal cultural significance, and obviously we’re going to have the ground proofing for map-staking as well.

There are phase two and three: Phase two will include the dispute resolution process. I keep mentioning that because we think it’s a particularly important part of the legislation, something that is incredibly important, and the prospector awareness as well. The online map-staking in terms of the province will take some time to make it work well.

Again, our goal is to work with all people who’ve got an interest in the mining sector. I am hopeful and I strongly believe that the work that we’ve done on modernizing the Mining Act will be of real benefit to us as we move forward with the development of the Ring of Fire. We are very conscious of how this must be managed in a careful and well-discussed way, and we’re going to make sure that happens.

I can tell you that—as always, I seem to run out of time; I don’t know how it happens. There’s lots to talk about. I thank you for the opportunity.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): Thank you, and you’re right on the money there.

I’d like to finish at 10 minutes to. That will give us time to leave the committee room and go up and vote. We’ve got to finish off here today. I’m going to ask if we can limit ourselves, if that’s okay, if I have the will of the committee, to three minutes for each party, starting with—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Just closing comments, I guess.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): And if we want to make closing comments, however we want to do it. I’m going to be really strict with the time.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: So we vote afterwards, Chair? We’ll come back after the vote?

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): No, you’ll be all done.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Okay.

Mr. Bob Delaney: Will we have time to say—

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): Yes, I think so, if we get started right away. Mr. Hillier.

Mr. Randy Hillier: Minister, I just want to refer you back again to one of your responses. It was with regard to economic development in the north on crown lands. On page 3 of that, you mentioned here $500,000 for a study in the first bullet point, another $50,000 for another study in Northeast Superior Forest Community and another $1.3 million for another study in Timmins—clearly studying the opportunities for crown land development. On the very first page, you indicate that the northwestern Ontario economic facilitator initiative by Dr. Rosehart included the recommendation regarding crown land development, which called for the MNR to lead an interministerial working group to facilitate a process for lot development on crown land etc. But then on page 2, the last bullet point, you say that there are no plans to change these established processes for crown land disposition.

Here we have a report on the first page looking for an interministerial working group to improve the process, you’re spending lots of money on studying crown land development, and then there are no plans to change the process on page 2.

What is clear with me is—and it must be difficult for you, because you want to do economic development, and you’re surrounded by contradictions—contradictions on crown land development; contradictions on your energy policy within government, the high energy costs driving our businesses out of northern Ontario; and contradictions from environmental groups and MNR on the Endangered Species Act harming our forestry. You’re full of contradictions, this government. You talk a lot about economic development but are surrounded with contradictions that prevent you from actually accomplishing economic development. That’s what we’ve seen in the north: a steady, steady decline.

You can spend all this money on studies, but the problem with economic development in the north is not one of money; the problem is one of contradictions—contradictions of your government. How can we harvest more timber when we continually shrink the land base? How can we process minerals from the Ring of Fire if the energy costs are so great that we can’t be competitive doing it?

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): The time is up, Mr. Hillier.

Mr. Randy Hillier: Minister, it’s not consultations. Even though you’ve scrubbed the consultations, you need to get these contradictions out of the system.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): We’re going to move to the third party. Mr. Bisson, please, three minutes.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Well, it’s closing comments, and I guess in the three minutes that I have, I just want to say a couple of things. One, I believe that the work that Northern Development, Mines and Forestry does in northern Ontario is important work, along with the work of MNR and a few other ministries. I think more and more, we’re seeing people in northern Ontario who are becoming less and less enchanted by the decision-making process. The minister will maybe not agree to that and be a cheerleader on it, but I think he knows what I speak of. Far too often, decisions are made very far away from northern Ontario. That may not sit well with northerners. The examples of that we saw under the Far North planning act, under Bill 191. We’ve certainly seen that under the Mining Act etc.

Ministers of the crown are put in the unenviable position of trying to bridge the gap between the wants and wishes of northerners and the wants and wishes of the Premier. That is true of most governments. I think one of the things that we’re going to have to come to terms with in northern Ontario in the not-too-distant future is trying to figure out a way that northerners are able to be brought into the process of how we come to decisions in ministries such as Northern Development and Mines or MNR or whatever that affect us in northern Ontario so that, as much as humanly possible, we have solutions that are designed by northerners for northerners when it comes to the issues that face us in the north.

It’s not that southern Ontario is evil. I don’t buy that for a second. People in southern Ontario are just as good as us. They’re just as well intentioned, they’re just as honourable as we are, just as hard-working etc. But we live different experiences, and if you ask people in Attawapiskat to go sit on city council and decide where the bicycle lanes are going to be in downtown Toronto, I think you’re going to have a pretty different outcome than if people in Toronto were to do it. We’re just saying that in northern Ontario, we want to be able to make decisions about what happens to us.

I understand that governments of different colours try to do as they did under the Mining Act; under your ministry, Minister; and under Madame Jeffrey’s ministry with the Far North planning act. What starts out to be a well-intended idea—but we never really end up with what we want in northern Ontario because we’re caught in this dichotomy of what the Premier’s office wants, what the NGOs in Toronto want and the Premier’s needs for votes in southern Ontario. We get caught up in that whole situation.

So I just say that we in the north are a resilient bunch, as the minister well knows; you’re one of us. We may not be on the same side on a whole bunch of issues and we might fight each other on a number of cases, but at the end of the day, our interests are all the same, and that is that we all in northern Ontario are able to move forward in a way that recognizes that we need to sustain what happens and that we’re able to move forward in a way that’s to the benefit of all.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): Time’s up, Mr. Bisson. Government: three minutes.

Mr. Bob Delaney: I think we’ll pass and go to the vote.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): All right. Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes the standing committee’s review of the estimates of the Ministry of Northern Development, Mines and Forestry. We will now deal with the vote.

Shall vote 2201 carry? Carried.

Shall vote 2202 carry? Carried.

Shall vote 2203 carry? Carried.

Shall vote 2204 carry? Carried.

Shall the estimates for 2010-11 of the Ministry of Northern Development, Mines and Forestry carry? Carried.

Shall I report the 2010-11 estimates of the Ministry of Northern Development, Mines and Forestry to the House? Agreed.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I appreciate your strong support.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Bailey): Thank you, Minister, and your staff, for attending. On behalf of the full-time Chairman—I know it’s been an interesting three days. I enjoy this committee. As I said, it’s always interesting.

Before we adjourn, we are going to adjourn to Tuesday, October 19, at 9 a.m., when we will begin consideration of the estimates of the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities.

I’ll see you in the House.

The committee adjourned at 1752.

CONTENTS

Wednesday 6 October 2010

Ministry of Northern Development, Mines and Forestry E-267

Hon. Michael Gravelle

Mr. Bill Thornton

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

Chair / Président

Mr. Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North / Simcoe-Nord PC)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Président

Mr. Robert Bailey (Sarnia–Lambton PC)

Mr. Robert Bailey (Sarnia–Lambton PC)

Mr. Gilles Bisson (Timmins–James Bay / Timmins–Baie James ND)

Mr. Jim Brownell (Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry L)

Mr. Kim Craitor (Niagara Falls L)

Mr. Bob Delaney (Mississauga–Streetsville L)

Mr. Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North / Simcoe-Nord PC)

Mr. Phil McNeely (Ottawa–Orléans L)

Mr. John O’Toole (Durham PC)

Mrs. Maria Van Bommel (Lambton–Kent–Middlesex L)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Mr. Randy Hillier (Lanark–Frontenac–Lennox and Addington PC)

Clerk pro tem / Greffière par intérim

Ms. Sylwia Przezdziecki

Staff / Personnel

Ms. Anne Marzalik, research officer,
Legislative Research Service