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Message: 21 Various comments re.. The Destruction of the Canadian Investor
29 Comments
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G Woody said…
The charts and regulation timings show the realities. What’s missing here is the point blank finger pointing. They call it “short term market inefficiencies”! What outright balderdash.
There’s no way they didn’t see this coming. It’s like telling yourself that driving your car into a cement wall won’t hurt.
We all saw what happened in the USA. Here, they went even nuttier so what do you expect.
What needs to happen is a full judicial inquiry into the matter. See who they are connected to and who benefited. These buggers knew full well what would happen and clearly planned to make it worse.
This only happens when graft is involved. They have no fear of convictions. (Neither did the guys in Montreal). Perhaps we have to wait for Flaherty and his coven to be thrown out of office.
As I’ve said before, this was deliberate and they are achieving their goals. So we need a new self regulated way to conduct business that prevents the old boyz club from getting in.
For more of my opinion go here: http://goldcoppertungsten.blogspot.ca/2013/05/when-price-discovery-function-fails.html
Again, big thanks to Ivan for keeping the focus on this issue. If you have not invited your friends to read Equedia via social media please take the time to do so. The question of who’s listening is important. Ivan can’t just preach to the choir. Help get the message out.
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robert said…
Just more scams for the bankers in change of running the stock exchange
they all should be fired and put in jail -
Yvon Roy said…
Your article is very interesting!
As a frequent trader, I am very frustrated by the way my
stockbroker (TD Waterhouse) handle my orders. As an
example, many “Market” orders are filled at a price that
is higher (for buy orders) or lower (for sell orders) than
the price appearing on the quote service (eSignal) that
I use. These prices are not published on the quote services.
Very frustrated!-
Ivan Lo - Equedia said…
Never, with any broker, place market orders. The traders will always arbitrage your orders to make money. They love when market orders are placed because it allows them to buy cheap and sell higher, or sell high and buy lower – especially since they can see the full order book.
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Gerry said…
Bang on G Woody. A major concern I have is with one of Canada’s big banks/brokerages. Scotia Mocatta(BankofNovaScotia) has become one of the top 4 shorters in the Comex silver market. This has commenced in October of last year. If this continues more juniors will be forced out of the mining sector due to the price of silver being lower than what it costs to get it out of the ground. Why the regulators in Canada allow this to happen is beyond me. These juniors need a level playing field and not some big bank forcing them out of business. These juniors are being attacked from all sides without a word from the regulators. We need more regulators that will work for the people, not more regulations.
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norm pelletier said…
I would like to known when the tsx rebound …What year .. I have much lost money but no sale yet
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Julien said…
Excellent article. Finally someone comments on this very important issue.
PS> In the other article (interview) you mention a report by Natural Resource Holdings. That report does not seem to be online anymore. Would you have a copy? Thanks a lot.
Julien -
burned too many times said…
tsx-v will not last many more years. many,many people i know refuse to invest in the juniors anymore due to the non-stop shorting. stick a fork in it,it’s done
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G Woody said…
ETFs are also causing problems and are actually undermining their own supply. It’s the explorers after all who find the stuff. They take all the risk and now face being wiped out.
All the reports I see show declining grades. We are having to try find massive low grade deposits like Galore and Schaft Creek (here in Canada) to fill the void. What I see coming is a compression cycle where new supply dwindles until the very people behind it realize what they’ve done to themselves. You want to see ETFs collapse in a hurry? Wait until those investors come to understand that they cause part of this. Price will go up until they realize the scarcity actually means no supply at all.
This is one of the root causes of Nationalization. So when your ETF is suddenly faced with no supply… it’s out of business.
Oh ya, and all this talk of this just being a cycle? Ah, I don’t think so. Look at the banks who are hording gold. I wonder why that could be. Anyone read the news on Barrick? How about the Pebble deposit, might that never become a mine?
I can only wish the plumbers knew what was happening. A roll of solder is $32! (Not to mention that a 2×4 is now almost $3.50 and I live by saw mills).
Our govt’s say naaaa, no inflation problems folks. $1.40 a foot for 1/2 inch copper pipe is normal. Then add in that PIMCO told it’s investors they would only be able to hold value and not accrue it. Did we really need chapter two of Disaster Economics?
And another real good poke in the eye. The courts dismissed the claim against the Chinese workers here in BC. I guess it’s open season on our Constitution. You must now speak Mandarin Chinese to work as a miner! Something stinks there. I can’t see how a foreign company can over rule our laws, pay cut rate wages and charge head hunter fees while bringing in their own people at the expense of Canadians. I smell a fraud.
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Ivan Lo - Equedia said…
Great comments guys. One thing to keep in mind is how shorting really works. Shorting is selling stock you don’t have, in hopes you buy it back at cheaper prices to replace the stock you sold short. But when the big banks, or the custodians, you trade through are holding stock from numerous clients, they essentially have a lot of borrowed stock that can be used to cover should the markets turn.
This really is no different than the banking system, where a bank can lend 10 times the money they don’t have. See this video for some info: http://www.equedia.com/the-best-kept-secrets-of-the-dollar/
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POKERMAN said…
I live in Memphis, Tn. ,my only foray into the TSX was a couple years ago on Yellow Media. At the time it paid a great dividend but I could not justify what was going on with the management. They were selling their stock while issuing more shares. Red Flag. They bought a car trading magazine for 1.25 billion and sold it for .70 billion, to raise more cash. at any rate the stock price kept falling to zero after they finally cut out the dividend. The end game was to get into bankruptcy court and screw the stockholders, and sell new stock and start over. Somebody should be rotting in jail over this outrage. Yellow pages are making good money but hate their shareholders for some reason. I was glad to get out with some gain.
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Tony Bell said…
LETS SERIOUSLY GET THIS ARTICLE VIRAL AND PUBLISHED EVERYWHERE! FORWARD IT TO EVERY NEWS CHANNEL AND NEWSPAPER. THE MORE OF US THAT DO IT, THE MORE WE WILL FINALLY BE HEARD.
WE HAVE ALL BEEN USED AND OUR HARD EARNED INVESTMENT DOLLARS WASTED AND CONTROLLED.
FORWARD THIS ARTICLE TO AS MANY PEOPLE, AS MANY NEWS SOURCES. SOMEONE HAS TO SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS.
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Derrick Lau said…
I agree with Tony. If we all send messages to the news sources, they would have to cover this story eventually.
Forwarding this article to whoever I can.
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norman cartmell said…
I was looking to invest in some TSX companies but i am having second thoughts now.I think this manipulation needs to stop now otherwise investors like us wont be investing.
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R Potuer said…
This is another good example how big business thinks about what is really important in the world. “Money and how to make more, as fast as possible, regardless of what their actions do to the rest of the world”. High un-employment, high personnal debt, low savings and retirement balances, high housing costs, high gas prices, high taxes, reduced government spending on healthcare and education, and on and on. Ripping off the markets through manipulation affects everyone and everything, even if you don’t invest. Once again, the top 1 or 2% gain hugely, while the rest of us in the middle and lower class continue to bleed trying to keep the country alive. When everyone starts to think and do “what’s good for the country” rather than thinking: “screw everyone, I want more easy money”, perhaps Canada will once again be strong.
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L Grapentine said…
The government body that mandated these changes is clearly corrupt. Everyone who has any experience in securities knows what a disaster the elimination of the uptick rule has been for the USA; it is impossible to be a regulator and still support it unless you have been bought. The fact that a government body involving a number of people brought this about indicates a criminal conspiracy in my mind; it will take legislative action to change the situation, likely preceded by a government investigation. At best it will take years, and since it so clearly involves the banks, including, in all likelihood, the American and Canadian central banks, I seriously doubt that anything can be done. Ultimately, this is likely to mean the failure of all but the very strongest of the publicly held companies and/or their acquisition by banking interests.
The only alternative is a campaign to direct all orders in listed securities to the exchange for execution. This would require the cooperation of the brokerage firms and a massive educational effort, but it is likely to be successful absent overt government intervention of dubious legality. My suggestion would be to approach the exchange membership and relevant brokerage industry groups for support in the process IF you are fairly confident they are not under the control of the large banks. Unfortunately the banks control all the relevant structures in the USA already, however, the TSX Venture is fairly small, and while they will certainly have brokers there under their sway, if they do not control the exchange outright, this would have considerable appeal.
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L Grapentine said…
Of course, the exchange would have to implement its own uptick rule, else the entire effort would be for naught.
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James Trusler said…
The unfortunate effect of unbridled shorting on junior stocks is that it has created at least the impression of manipulation in the markets if not actual manipulation. It represents artificial inflation of the number of shares available to the market. This may prove to be akin to a BreX for every company! If foreign investors get a whiff of how the pro traders are ripping them off it could lead to a much larger exodus from Canadian stocks and an even larger degree of distrust of the Canadian market place.
I have noticed some peculiar trading between the different platforms as well for low liquidity stocks.
The banks had already taken over the stock market in Canada and have massively changed the rules and restricted access to the venture market by the average investor.
It seems to me that a major overhaul of the stock market regulation is needed.-
Winston Lee said…
This will likely take years to even be brought into the spotlight by politicians, who are likely to be involved in some way or another.
Its like this piece says, the big banks are taking over and they will do anything to accomplish it. to them, sometimes it takes a full cleanse and this is exactly what theyre doing to the venture market.
HFT is supposed to increase liquidity so they remove the uptick rule and now we’re stuck getting hammered with borrowed shares.
I agree with Tony Bell in the comments here. Share this article with as many people as you can and forward it to all of the media hubs so we get this story covered.
Thank you Ivan Lo for shining the light on this topic backed up by some great examples.
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Robert Hamel said…
You bring up an interesting point regarding peculiar trading for low liquidity stocks. These stocks could not be more transparent given their low volumes and tight share structure, yet there is always stock to be sold in weird ways.
As for regulation overhaul, I agree. But what overhaul is needed? I don’t think everything needs to be changed. Is there anything in particular you would suggest?
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Roger Davison said…
It is not only the Stock Markets that are being manipulated, but also the majority of the World’s major Nation’s currencies.
Fiat money reigns these days thanks to these Governments departing from the discipline of having real money in circulation.
This basically results from the pervasive debt-based Monetary Systems in use, whereby Governments sell interest bearing Bonds to cover their deficits.
As Governments are the sole authorities for creating and circulating ‘money’ they do not need to saddle their countries with these exponentially increasing debts-which incidentally can never be completely paid off.
In a way Money and Market manipulations are branches of the same disease, and will unfortunately most likely result in the total collapse of Civilisation as we know it today.
The irony of it is that all these paper money shenanigans will not in the long run profit anyone at all.
I wish everyone good luck for the future.-
Winston Lee said…
Roger, did you see http://www.equedia.com/the-best-kept-secrets-of-the-dollar/
literally the same thing as the stock market. the issue is that we have no way around currency manipulation. but someone can easily do something about stocks.
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Roger Davison said…
Winston…there is a way. If all the Nation’s population or rather, a vast majority of it were to complain to their MPs about Fiat money and the lack of a stable long-term store of wealth available to all- then the Government has the power to make the required change(s).
However, this is unlikely to occur as most of the ordinary folks have no notion of what money is, or how it is supposed to work, or it’s history. Unfortunately it has never been a subject taught to our children-nor it is ever mentioned in any of the media – in fact it seems to be one they studiously avoid mentioning.-
Charles Smith said…
Roger: complaining to MPs about fiat money is like complaining to Ronald McDonald about eating McDonalds. Anytime in our history someone tried to fight the fiat banking system, they got killed. Abraham Lincoln tried to fight it. JFK tried to bring silver back as legal tender. Both were assassinated.
The problem is the banking system. But try shutting that down and bringing the bartering system or gold backed currency is next to impossible.
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Roger Davison said…
Charles As an individual complaining what you say is true, but supposedly the way to get change is to bug your MPs, and that doesn’t seem to work. I have written to Finance Ministers for some years past and got BS replies. However, if everyone or most complained and voted accordingly maybe it would cause something to change . Hopefully for the better.
As said before, good luck to all. -
Steven R. Livingston said…
These are all very good points… and the worst, IROC’s Accredited Investor Rule, wasn’t even mentioned! A rule that limits access to TSX.Venture financing product to very few investors in our system (market place.) It certainly has contributed to the declining volumes. Getting the participation back is vital to our survival. With out throwing stones, I firmly believe that the intended mandate of investor protection via the AI rule, has had the opposite effect and is a real significant contributor to this serious problem we face now in the junior markets. Clients are not just rolling over and simply saying ‘ok Steve, um then just buy it for me on the offer…’ because they don’t ‘qualify’ for product reserved for accredited investors, re: the cheaper priced units – units that almost always come with an attached sweetener/incentive such as a full or half purchase (reload) warrant – things that retail investors want and feel entitled to as well. Retail investors who don’t meet the high AI rule watermark, are not simply paying up as stated and buying in the market… their saying screw that! And looking else where. The rule has significantly lessened the pool of smart investors who want to own Canadian small cap/junior recourse companies for part of their portfolio, and/or on a 100% basis in their designated ‘speculative stock’ account. Also, there is no longer any wide based ‘distribution’ as a result of this rule – which was a cornerstone of the risk markets/business when I started in the early nineties. And another one of the bad results is liquidity – or lack there of – mostly from the view that there exists so much cheap paper now placed in the hands of very few (AI Qualified) investors! Its no wonder the pubco’s can’t make or better, maintain a market, let alone move to new (higher) levels on improving fundamentals. Profits are profits and accredited investors take them too, mercilessly. There’s just too much paper on the supply side now and too few buyers with ‘real’ bids. There has to be a better mechanism that’s fair and that allows the real retail investor back into this market place. Possibly an exemption that allows an amount, say, $25K Max per household per placement, to subscribe for a non and/or brokered deal? That would bring some retail money back to the pubco’s, and soon get the IA’s talking to their risk accounts again – about new financing placement product. As it stands now, with this enforceable AI Rule, and all of the above… Its over! And that’s a shame for all concerned. So we have to fix this! Steve Livingston, Calgary.
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ebear said…
Re: The Destruction of the Canadian Investor
in response to The Destruction of the Canadian Investor posted by abstacey
reply………….
posted on May 27, 13 03:28PM on the Agoracom Club 300 Investment Group WebsiteI agree with most of what the author says, but I think he’s missed a couple of important factors.
1. Over-issuance of stock. We’ve just had one of the biggest booms in Canadian resource history and as a result, if you could fog a mirror, you could get listed. In a downturn that translates into too many undercapitalized companies with marginal properties. Until they disappear, either through bankruptcy or takeover, expect a weak market.
2. Demographics. Many of the players from the recent boom are older folks approaching retirement, if they haven’t retired already. Priorities shift as you get older – hanging on to what you have is more important than risking money in a weak market. Also, the next generation isn’t as well off which means there are fewer players entering the game as older ones leave.
The first factor is corrected over time through the normal operation of the market – supply and demand come into balance and the risk-reward ratio starts to improve. I’m not so confident on the second factor though. Global unemployment/underemployment appears to be structural, not cyclical. That means the next generation and possibly the one after will have less disposable income, thus less risk capital to place in the markets. Besides having less risk capital it also means less disposable income which is not good for resources generally: less new construction, less discretionary travelling, fewer luxuries, etc. translates into weaker commodity demand.
Sorry to sound so gloomy, but it’s what I see, and in fact what I’m doing. I’m getting older – not retired yet, but it’s coming – and I’m spending much less than I used to. I have a few small positions, but for the most part I’m out and not looking to get back in. It would take a major shift in market dynamics for me to return, not the least of which would be a restructuring of the entire banking system and a return to honest accounting and honest money, and I’m not holding my breath on that. I think we go through the wringer before that happens and when we do, I want to have cash to buy, not lose it all at a time when I need it most.
ebear
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